and if you force democrats to take a side on a civil rights issue, eventually, they're going to side on the side of freedom. so, you know, it took, you know, eight -- it took four or five years until the democratic party in general, you know, it was not acceptable to be against marriage equality. once democrats got on board, you know, it allowed -- you know, it allowed a lot of other folks to get behind it. and so i think that if karl rove hadn't made such a big stink about it in 2004, we might not have seen, ironically, the progress that we have over the last several years. >> jonathan, let's keep talking about karl rove for a second. i'll quote the president who's quoting other people, but the arc of history is long, but i believe ben stewart is justice. karl rove almost seemed to be bending in that direction for a second this week and then backtracked. i mean, what is the deal there? he was almost going to say, it is unacceptable for a republican on the national stage to be against marriage equality. and then summarily backed down from that issue. how much does that hurt the party